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Khaled Meshaal in Doha, Qatar, on August 10, 2014. Photo: KARIM JAAFAR/AFP via Getty Images.
DOHA, QATAR—If President Donald Trump wants to achieve stability in the Middle East, he should put an end to Israeli interference in U.S. policy toward Palestine, senior Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal told Drop Site. Instead, Meshaal said, the U.S. should enter into a genuine process of direct negotiations with Hamas and other Palestinian political factions aimed at establishing friendly, bilateral relations.
“Unfortunately, one of the problems with the U.S. administration is that it prioritizes Israel’s interests more than the United States’ own interests. Even Trump’s people—MAGA—came to realize that Israel is a burden on them, restricting and harming U.S. interests. I am simply calling on the American people and the U.S. administration to judge based on America’s interests, not Israel’s,” Meshaal said. “If they look at us even for a moment in a fair and impartial way, they will see that the Palestinian people are oppressed under occupation, and they have the right to resist—unless America steps in and forces Israel to withdraw, in which case we would thank America.” He added, “When the world fails to help you, you have no choice but to resist the occupier until you force it to withdraw.”
Meshaal, who is currently the head of Hamas outside of Palestine, was a founding member of the movement and is one of its most experienced and internationally well-known leaders. In the decade before Hamas launched in 1987, Meshaal was part of a group that created the architecture for the formation of a new Islamic political liberation movement in Palestine. That process crystallized in the formation of the Islamic Resistance Movement, commonly known by its Arabic acronym HAMAS. After the Israeli assassination of Hamas’s spiritual leader Sheikh Ahmed Yassin in 2004, Meshaal was widely recognized as the political leader of the movement and he served as head of its political bureau from 1996-2017.
He reiterated that Hamas is prepared to enter into a long-term ceasefire agreement with Israel, backed by a pledge that Hamas would store its weapons and commit to end all military operations targeting Israel. Meshaal also said that Hamas is ready to work closely with the U.S. and the international community in creating a stable security environment inside Gaza that will enable the reconstruction of the enclave, prepare the ground for democratic elections, and create the political conditions for negotiations addressing the future of a Palestinian state.
“The pragmatic American mindset, and President Trump’s genuine concern to achieve stability and prevent Gaza from remaining a continual bleeding wound that worries the world and deeply strikes the human conscience [can] create an opportunity for stability,” Meshaal said. “Hamas provides this opportunity with real guarantees and a record of commitment.”
Hamas remains a popular political actor within Palestine and has served as the only governing authority in Gaza for two decades—a fact that, Meshaal said, Trump needs to consider. While Hamas has offered to relinquish its governance of the enclave in favor of a technocratic committee of non-partisan Palestinians, Meshaal warned that attempting to impose a sweeping ban on anyone affiliated with Hamas from participating in the stabilization and rebuilding of society in Gaza would be counterproductive.
“Any attempt to establish a non-Palestinian authority inside Gaza is first unacceptable and second doomed to fail,” Meshaal said. “Any non-Palestinian authority—meaning foreign authorities or foreign forces inside Gaza—would be treated by Palestinians as an occupying authority, as an occupying power. This would automatically create a state of conflict because Palestinians would not accept it. Why would Palestinians reject Israeli occupation but accept another form of foreign occupation?”
During the sit-down interview with Drop Site in Doha last week, Meshaal argued that the current moment offers an opportunity for the U.S. and Europe to realign the Western approach to the Middle East. “The Palestinian people are not against American interests. We are opposed to those who interfere in our affairs and to those who support our enemy. But we are ready to open up to America, to Europe, and to the world,” he said. “What we will not accept is occupation, guardianship, or support for an occupier. We criticize the United States not because it is the United States—no—but because it provides Israel, our occupier, with complete support in all forms. Today, there is an opportunity for transformation, and I believe it is in the interest of the West to sponsor a fundamental change in [the approach to] Palestine, just as it eventually recognized the truth in South Africa and withdrew its support from that apartheid regime.”
Citing Trump’s embrace of Ahmed Al-Sharaa, the former Al Qaeda operative turned anti-Assad rebel leader who took power as interim president of Syria in January, Meshaal said the U.S. should pursue a similar path with Palestinian political leaders. “Why does the U.S. administration give Ahmad Al‑Sharaa this opportunity but does not give it to Hamas and the Palestinian resistance forces? It does not even give it today to [Palestinian Authority President] Mahmoud Abbas, who is not accused of terrorism,” Meshaal said. “It is in the interest of the United States and Western capitals to pursue positive engagement with Hamas and with the Palestinian people, because we are the future, and this occupation will become part of the past.”
A former physics teacher, the 69-year old Meshaal has spent his life building Hamas. In 1997, a year after Meshaal was named head of Hamas’s political bureau, the newly-elected Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu ordered Mossad agents to assassinate him in Amman, Jordan. Posing as Canadian tourists, the two operatives sprayed poison into his ear as he exited his car. One of Meshaal’s bodyguards, with the assistance of Jordanian police, captured the Israeli agents. King Hussein subsequently threatened to put the spies on trial and potentially execute them if Meshaal died and to end Jordan’s peace treaty with Israel. In response, Netanyahu dispatched the head of Mossad, Danny Yatom, to fly to Amman with the antidote to the poison. Hussein also secured the release of Yassin, Hamas’s spiritual leader, as part of the deal.
Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, center, the spiritual leader of Hamas, with Khaled Meshaal, right, and Mousa Abu Marzouk in Amman, Jordan, in 1997. (Photo by KHALIL MAZRAAWI/AFP via Getty Images)
Meshaal has been widely credited with being one of the architects of Hamas’s 2006 winning campaign in the Palestinian national elections. In 2012, Meshaal—who had spent his life in exile since 1967—made a triumphant visit to Palestine where he received a hero’s welcome in the streets of Gaza. Meshaal’s last act as Hamas’s political leader came on May 1, 2017 when he presided over the public unveiling of a 42-point manifesto that stated that Hamas was willing to accept a Palestinian state along the borders that existed prior to the 1967 Arab-Israeli war.
“Without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights,” it stated, “Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus.” The document also sharpened language defining the national liberation character of armed struggle in Palestine, denounced anti-semitism and clarified that the enemy of the Palestinian cause was a “colonial Zionist project.”
While the manifesto did not officially replace Hamas’s 1988 charter, its language on accepting what would amount to a two-state solution was seen as a significant overture to the international community. In the ensuing years, Meshaal continued to represent Hamas internationally, but the center of leadership within the movement shifted to Yahya Sinwar and Ismail Haniyeh—both of whom Israel assassinated in the summer of 2024. Over the course of the past two years of the Gaza genocide, Meshaal receded from prominence and has seldom spoken or appeared in public.
That dynamic has changed as of late. Within minutes of Israel’s attack on Hamas’s offices in Doha on September 9, Israeli media outlets and prominent social media accounts were circulating reports that Meshaal and other Palestinian leaders had been assassinated. Those rumors were false. While the strike killed the son of Hamas leader Khalil al-Hayya, and four other office staff, it did not kill any negotiators or political officials.
And now, in the aftermath of Trump’s October Gaza deal, Meshaal has reemerged as a prominent voice representing Hamas and outlining its positions on a range of issues. He has denounced Israel’s pervasive violations of the “ceasefire” agreement and its continued killing of not just Palestinian civilians, but also members of the armed resistance who are direct parties to the ceasefire. Since October 10, Israel has killed nearly 400 Palestinians and wounded more than 1,000 and continues to block the agreed upon delivery of life essentials.
“Some in the world think the first phase was excellent or fully implemented—it was not. While the war, in terms of total annihilation, has stopped, Israeli violations continue,” Meshaal said. “Therefore, our call as Palestinians, not just Hamas, is that Israel must be held accountable for all agreements of the first phase before moving quickly to the second phase. As Hamas committed to the first phase requirements, Hamas, along with all Palestinian forces, is committed to the requirements of the second phase through this serious dialogue with the mediators to reach sound approaches—not as Netanyahu wants, but as agreed upon with the mediators.”
Meshaal has also outlined Hamas’s position that while it is open to a “freezing” or storing of its defensive weapons, it will not agree to disarmament unless it is in the context of establishing a Palestinian army or security force capable of defending itself from Israeli aggression.
Last week, Netanyahu mentioned Meshaal by name in a speech, saying that Meshaal’s rejection of Palestinian disarmament would be confronted. “This mission will be completed either the easy way or the hard way,” Netanyahu said on December 9. A day later, Meshaal sat for an hourlong special interview on Al Jazeera Arabic and Hamas widely distributed his remarks across its official platforms.
Meshaal is the second most popular hypothetical candidate for president of Palestine, according to a recent poll, should the Palestinian Authority allow fair elections. Marwan Barghouti, who has ranked as the most popular potential leader for years, is currently imprisoned on multiple life terms in Israeli prison. “We hope that Marwan will be released, that he will have the opportunity to engage in national struggle and political work, and that he will be a candidate—this is his natural right,” Meshaal said. “Hamas also has the right to nominate whomever it chooses, whether Khaled Meshaal or someone else.”
Abbas, the 90-year-old head of the Palestinian Authority, disagrees. He issued a “decree law” on November 19 that would ban Hamas-affiliated candidates and other pro-resistance Palestinians from running in local elections. It would also prohibit candidates who do not officially recognize the Oslo agreements and other deals that are widely seen among Palestinians as dangerous capitulations. The law, which was pushed by Western countries but widely denounced in Palestine, is almost certain to be applied on a national level, according to a source who has seen a draft version of the proposed decree. The source added that there is language in the draft that would also prohibit any party with an armed wing from participating in elections.
“The democracy desired in Palestine, as is unfortunately practiced in some countries in the region and the world, is that elections should produce predetermined results acceptable to those holding them. If they do not, they are canceled. That is not democracy,” said Meshaal. “If you respect the will of the people, allow them to express it freely at the ballot box. Today, everyone knows—even after the destruction in Gaza following two long years of the crime of genocide committed by Israel—that the Palestinian conscience, awareness, and, I believe, the Palestinian voter, if given the opportunity, would vote for the resistance.”
Hamas’s Message to Trump: “Power is responsibility”
Drop Site News met with Meshaal in person on Thursday in Doha. The interview was conducted as the Trump administration is pushing forward with its plan to deploy an International Stabilization Force (ISF) to Gaza and, in recent days, has been intensifying its pressure on both European and Islamic nations to commit troops. Several Arab and other Muslim countries have said they will not join a mission to disarm or battle Palestinian resistance fighters.
“We should be realistic and nuanced in expecting certain things,” said Turkish Foreign Minister Hakan Fidan in an appearance on December 6 at the Doha Forum in Qatar. “Our first objective in deploying the ISF is to separate Palestinians from the Israelis.” His remarks were echoed by Egypt’s foreign minister Badr Abdelatty. “We need to deploy this force as soon as possible on the ground because one party, which is Israel, is every day violating the ceasefire and claiming that the other side is violating, so we need monitors,” Abdelatty said.
Netanyahu has dismissed the notion that an international force would be willing, or able, to implement a disarmament operation. He suggested that Israel may eventually launch its own military campaign in the name of disarming Gaza, an objective its forces failed to achieve during more than two years of scorched earth war.
Despite clear opposition from its Arab and Muslim allies, the Trump administration continues to insist the ISF will enter Gaza with a mission to disarm Hamas. “We specifically put language in there that said, ‘by all means necessary,’” U.S. Ambassador to the UN Mike Waltz told Israel’s Channel 12 on December 11, referring to the UN Security Council resolution passed on November 17. “Now, obviously that’ll be a conversation with each country. Those rules of engagement are ongoing. I’ll tell you this, President Trump has repeatedly said Hamas will disarm one way or another, the easy way or the hard way.”
Last week, U.S. officials met with their European counterparts in Tel Aviv to discuss the ISF and reportedly threatened to permit an indefinite Israeli military presence if EU nations did not offer troops. “The message was: ‘If you are not ready to go to Gaza, don’t complain that the IDF stays,’” one European diplomat told Axios.
While citing substantial objections over the Trump Gaza plan’s vague yet sweeping nature, Meshaal said that the 20-point document nonetheless contains key concepts that Hamas, in principle, would accept. Meshaal cautioned, however, that the common ground between Hamas and Trump is undermined by attempts to impose foreign rule over Gaza, deploy an international force to disarm the Palestinian resistance, rather than serve as peacekeepers, or to enact policies that would enable Israel to continue its war of annihilation under the guise of a “peace deal.”
He also reiterated that Palestinian negotiators never agreed to disarmament or any of the terms in the “second phase” of a deal, despite U.S. and Israeli claims to the contrary. The negotiators from Hamas made clear privately and publicly in October that they only had a mandate to negotiate a ceasefire and exchange of captives and that all other issues must be handled through a consensus process involving all major Palestinian political factions.
Hamas negotiators had urged the U.S. and regional mediators to approach the issue of disarmament through technical negotiation, Meshaal said, and not through edicts that seek to achieve a surrender of the Palestinian liberation cause that Israel could not win on the battlefield. During the October negotiations, he noted, Hamas leaders informed the mediators that sweeping demands for immediate disarmament would sabotage a broader agreement and undermine Trump’s stated aim of ending the war.
“We do not want to clash with anyone or confront anyone, but we will not accept being forcibly disarmed. We told them: if you want results, let us look for a realistic approach that includes guarantees,” Meshaal said. “In truth, the major question is not the likelihood of the Palestinian side’s commitment, the problem lies with the Israeli side—because by its nature it is treacherous, this is its history. Second, it is the side that possesses lethal weaponry. The issue is not how to protect the Israeli side—it is the occupier. The issue is how to protect the Palestinian people, who are nearly defenseless. The weapons of the resistance do not mean that we are armed in the conventional sense, as states are. We are a nearly defenseless people, and we have sought weapons only to the extent possible in order to protect ourselves and defend ourselves.”
In launching his sweeping plan for Gaza, Trump was able to marshal the endorsement of dozens of Arab and Islamic countries, culminating in an unprecedented UN Security Council resolution that placed a fabricated stamp of legitimacy on an agenda that many Palestinians see as doing Israel’s bidding and colonialist in nature.
When asked whether the actions of Arab and Islamic states represented a betrayal of the Palestinian cause, Meshaal struck a diplomatic tone. “While they try to play a role in supporting the Palestinian people, standing by its cause or stopping the war, they also [consider] economic interests, arms purchases and other strategic considerations,” he said. “Since the American president is, in fact, a businessman, some countries are trying to build relationships with him that either serve their interests or protect them from potential harm, because they fear Trump’s adventures and sudden moves, as we saw in the past. This situation undoubtedly weakens strong Arab and Islamic intervention to stop the war.”
Despite the justifiable anger Palestinians may harbor toward Arab and Islamic states for their lack of intervention against Israel’s genocide, Meshaal emphasized, it is the U.S. that holds the only leverage over Israel: “Yes, more is required from Arabs and Muslims, but they are not the strongest party. As you know, no one in the world is able to compel Israel—even Europeans do not do so, or cannot do so.”
“Therefore, the responsibility of the United States is a doubled responsibility, and power is responsibility,” Meshaal said. “President Trump and the American administration alone are capable of compelling Israel and Netanyahu to respect the agreements, so they bear this responsibility before we assign responsibility to any regional or international party.”
Below is the full transcript of Drop Site’s wide-ranging interview with Meshaal on December 11, 2025 in Doha, Qatar. The interview was conducted in Arabic and translated into English by Drop Site.
Drop Site’s Jeremy Scahill interviews senior Hamas official Khaled Meshaal in Doha, Qatar on December 11, 2025.
Interview With Khaled Meshaal
Jeremy Scahill: Thank you for taking the time to speak with us.
Khaled Meshaal: Thank you very much. I appreciate your keenness to conduct this interview and for providing this space and platform for me and for all those who represent the Palestinian cause.
There is no doubt that the unprecedented Israeli crime is a war of genocide, a repetition of what the Jews were subjected to many decades ago. They are now committing this Holocaust and this war of genocide against the Palestinian people and against a small area of only 365 square kilometers—using the most severe and horrific tools of destruction and killing. We are pleased to address Western public opinion through your platform so that people hear from us, not about us, and so that the true nature of this conflict is understood, about which the world has been misled for many decades. So thank you.
Jeremy Scahill: Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu mentioned you by name the other day in regards to the demands for the disarmament of the Palestinian resistance. Trump’s National Security adviser, Mike Waltz, said recently that Hamas can disarm the easy way or the hard way. Can you explain in detail the position right now of the Palestinian resistance on the issue of disarmament, freezing weapons, and a long term truce, or hudna? Explain the position, right now, in the face of these demands from Netanyahu and Trump’s administration.
Khaled Meshaal: Of course, Netanyahu mentioned my name as if in a context of surprise, or incitement—he is inciting. Does Netanyahu really expect the Palestinian people to simply go and give up their weapons? Netanyahu’s own history, and that of his predecessors among Israeli leaders, is full of massacres. There is no trust among the Palestinian people toward the Israelis and the occupation. Israel’s history is one of massacres, treachery, and the violation of all agreements.
Even Yasser Arafat, who signed the Oslo Accords with them, was killed by poison. Mahmoud Abbas, who dealt with them with great openness in continuing Oslo and the peace process, is now left in the headquarters in Ramallah with no real role. In fact, Netanyahu, [Bezalel] Smotrich, and [Itamar] Ben-Gvir are now disassembling the Palestinian Authority and withholding its clearance funds. Not to mention the massacres Israel has committed throughout its history in Palestine, Lebanon, and Egypt, and even in relatively recent Palestinian history—when the Palestinian resistance left Beirut, [Ariel] Sharon carried out the Sabra and Shatila massacres.
Therefore, within Palestinian culture, both historically and in the present, there is no trust in the Israeli. This is a criminal, treacherous enemy, and therefore it is only natural for the Palestinian to hold on to his weapon. This is not an extra weapon or something marginal for Palestinians—it is directly tied to our existence under occupation. Any people living in an independent state rely on the state and its army—the state is theirs, the army is theirs, and it protects them. And in any society, a citizen engages with their state through political means. But when you are under occupation, resistance is natural. Who has not resisted?
Let me tell you a story. In 2007, President [Jimmy] Carter visited me. I respected him because he conducted himself with high moral standards. He wrote books supportive of the Palestinian cause. I valued him, and he gifted me some of his signed books. I remained in contact with him. I was saddened when he passed away. This man, with his deep humanity, asked me about my parents—who were living in Damascus at the time in 2007. He asked, “Do you mind if I meet them?” I said no, so he met with them. My father, spontaneously, said to him: “Mr. Carter, listen—I fought the British Mandate. I fought the British.” President Carter replied, with a beautiful spontaneity: “And we fought the British too.”
Meaning that even the Americans fought the colonizer or forms of colonialism and guardianship over the United States. I am not speaking [only] about Vietnam, South Africa, the peoples of the world, or Cuba—I am speaking even about Western societies. You know that from the BBC in London, the British authorities allowed [Charles] de Gaulle to ignite the spark of popular resistance by the French people against the Nazis—against Hitler’s forces. So this is [part of] culture—it is something natural. Accordingly, what Palestinians do in resistance is natural, and their holding on to their weapons is natural. It is essential that this background be clear to everyone.
Former U.S. President Jimmy Carter, right, embraces Meshaal upon their arrival in Damascus for a meeting on October 19, 2010. Photo: AFP PHOTO/LOUAI BESHARA via Getty Images.
When Trump’s plan emerged, followed by the Security Council resolution, and dialogue began between us and the Egyptian, Qatari, and Turkish mediators, the central matter became, how do we deal with what was stated in the plan and in the Security Council resolution? Our position was clear: Do not resort to an approach of disarmament. This would lead to clashing, violence, and confrontation from the side seeking to impose it on us. We do not want to clash with anyone or confront anyone, but we will not accept being forcibly disarmed. We told them, if you want results, let us look for a realistic approach that includes guarantees. We outlined several such guarantees. The first guarantee is that these weapons—Hamas and the resistance forces would preserve and not use, display or parade them. [The weapons] would be set aside by their own decision and with full seriousness, especially given that Hamas has a record of commitment and high credibility.
Second, what has been referred to as international stabilization forces: we accept them on the borders as separation forces between the Palestinian side and the Israeli side, not as forces deployed inside Gaza, as was intended for them and as Netanyahu wants—for them to clash with Palestinians and disarm them. Third, we proposed a hudna, and this is evidence of Hamas’s seriousness and the seriousness of the Palestinian resistance. A truce of five years, seven years, ten years—whatever is agreed upon. And a hudna means commitment. All the periods of calm, as we call them, during the wars of the past twenty years—all those limited hudnas—Hamas adhered to them, and it was Israel that violated them. So, a hudna.
We do not want to clash with anyone or confront anyone, but we will not accept being forcibly disarmed. We told them, if you want results, let us look for a realistic approach that includes guarantees.
Fourth, we said that the three mediators, along with other Arab and Islamic countries that have good relations with Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the resistance forces, can guarantee the Palestinian side to both the Israeli and the American sides—that Hamas and the resistance are committed. In truth, the major question is not the likelihood of the Palestinian side’s commitment, the problem lies with the Israeli side—because by its nature it is treacherous, this is its history. Second, it is the side that possesses lethal weaponry. The issue is not how to protect the Israeli side—it is the occupier. The issue is how to protect the Palestinian people, who are nearly defenseless. The weapons of the resistance do not mean that we are armed in the conventional sense, as states are. We are a nearly defenseless people, and we have sought weapons only to the extent possible in order to protect ourselves and defend ourselves.
I believe these are the correct approaches. I believe—as I stated in my [Al Jazeera] interview—that the pragmatic American mindset, and President Trump’s genuine concern to achieve stability and prevent Gaza from remaining a continual bleeding wound that worries the world and deeply strikes the human conscience—Western capitals, above all others, have become exasperated and fed up with what Israel is doing—create an opportunity for stability. Hamas provides this opportunity with real guarantees and a record of commitment. This is the approach—any other [approach] is impractical. It is enough for me to say it is impractical—not just unacceptable from our side.
Jeremy Scahill: I watched your recent interview with Al Jazeera Arabic and you mentioned the experience of Paul Bremer, who George W. Bush installed as the “viceroy” in Iraq during the 2003 invasion. And when the Americans implemented de-Ba’athification—where they criminalized the Ba’ath party of Saddam Hussein—they eliminated huge numbers of not only the professional military, but also civil society, government bureaucrats, and technocrats. They broke civil society because of de-Ba’athification. It seems to me that the Americans may eventually realize that Hamas is not only a resistance movement, but was a government and built civil infrastructure and civilian security forces. If they recreate a de-Ba’athification policy with Hamas and they try to remove anyone affiliated with Hamas, what would the consequences be on a security level? Because the idea is they’re going to send in a Palestinian police force—trained by the Egyptians, maybe. But the reality is that Hamas has been the security internally in Gaza for two decades. What would the consequences be if the Americans tried to adopt a de-Ba’athification approach to Hamas in Gaza?
Khaled Meshaal: From what I’ve been following in American statements, after the 2003 Iraq invasion, there have been some American reassessments about what they did in Iraq—that one of the mistakes was not just dismantling the regime. They realized that by dismantling the Iraqi state and its institutions, including the Iraqi army, they created chaos. This allowed groups like ISIS and forces the U.S. feared to emerge and it provided a pretext for prolonging the war in Iraq and the region. Therefore, I believe the American administration under President Trump should not repeat the same mistake—this is a relatively recent experience. If America seeks stability in the region, it must not make things worse or add fuel to the fire, which would further cause instability.
Furthermore, Hamas is not just a military organization or armed group—it is a resistance movement with a military dimension, but it is also a civil society movement. It is deeply rooted in the Palestinian people and is part of the fabric of Palestinian society. Its members are present across all aspects of Palestinian life. For two decades, Hamas has governed society efficiently, learning from past mistakes and gaining experience, and there was stability. The people of Gaza know that before Hamas ruled Gaza, there was lawlessness—a certain degree of chaos from rogue groups. Hamas managed this situation with high efficiency. Therefore, Hamas has a successful track record in maintaining security in the country and providing public safety. It has a successful experience in governing society, the government and providing for people’s needs, despite an unjust siege that lasted throughout this period.
Consequently, any attempt—and here I’m speaking about the principle, not just the method—to establish a non-Palestinian authority inside Gaza is first unacceptable and second doomed to fail. That’s why I said the Bremer experience is not acceptable. Looking back at Palestinian history a hundred years ago, after World War I in the early 1920s, there was the British Mandate. Practically, this Mandate was colonial, and Palestinian revolts in the 1920s, 1930s, and 1940s fought against it. The Mandate was unjust: it seized rights it did not possess, and it served as cover for the Zionist gangs that infiltrated Palestine and established Israel in 1948. Therefore, from a practical perspective, the Mandate experience and legacy is extremely negative, and in principle, is unacceptable. In principle, a mandate and guardianship are unacceptable.
As for the consequences you asked about, if such a scenario were to occur, they would certainly be serious. This would not be a confrontation with Hamas alone; it would be a confrontation with [Palestinian] society. I have said that any non-Palestinian authority—meaning foreign authorities or foreign forces inside Gaza—would be treated by Palestinians as an occupying authority, as an occupying power. This would automatically create a state of conflict because Palestinians would not accept it. Why would Palestinians reject Israeli occupation but accept another form of foreign occupation? That is unacceptable.
That is why I said that the Palestinian people are the ones who govern themselves, who make their own decisions, and who manage [their affairs]. Then Hamas took a step meant to shorten the path: it stepped away from administration—actually relinquished governance, not just in slogans—and left it to mediators such as Egypt, Qatar, and Turkey, in a Palestinian dialogue with various factions, to agree on forming a technocratic administration. This is what we have done for more than a year. What delayed this [process] is that the [Palestinian] Authority in Ramallah was not enthusiastic about it, even though we said that the reference authority of this administration would be the authority of Ramallah so that the Palestinian system between Gaza and the West Bank could be unified. Unfortunately, it stalled. Three weeks ago, this idea was finalized: 40 respectable Palestinian figures, all independent technocrats, were proposed, and eight were selected. The original plan was for this step to be implemented quickly and efficiently, but there was a delay because everyone was waiting to see what Israel would do in the second phase and whether the United States would force Israel to enter that second phase. President Trump’s recent statements indicate that the process would begin early next year, but Israel is the one causing the delay.
For your information and for the information of American viewers and followers, the first phase has not met its requirements. Israel has violated the requirements or conditions of the first phase: in relief, shelter, the entry of tents and caravans, food and medical aid, hospital rehabilitation, and opening the Rafah crossing in both directions—as stipulated in the Trump plan and the Security Council resolution. Yet Israel only mentions the remaining Israeli bodies—only one left. Hamas and the Palestinian resistance committed to everything, while Israel violated many [obligations]. This is in addition to killings under various pretexts. Even the issue of Hamas fighters in Rafah was a solvable problem, and the U.S. offered an initiative, but it was thwarted by Netanyahu. We also heard how Trump criticized Netanyahu, saying, “Why did you make this an ongoing crisis?”
Furthermore, the “yellow line,” which initially allowed Israel to control about 53% of Gaza—[Israel] is moving this line—has now shifted closer to 60% of the Gaza Strip. So some in the world think the first phase was excellent or fully implemented—it was not. While the war, in terms of total annihilation, has stopped, Israeli violations continue. Therefore, our call as Palestinians, not just Hamas, is that Israel must be held accountable for all agreements of the first phase before moving quickly to the second phase. As Hamas committed to the first phase requirements, Hamas, along with all Palestinian forces, is committed to the requirements of the second phase through this serious dialogue with the mediators to reach sound approaches—not as Netanyahu wants, but as agreed upon with the mediators. And I believe that the American side, as I said, in its pursuit of stability and its concern for results more than the ways Israel is trying to incite the U.S.—the American administration and the international community will understand the approaches that we can develop together with the mediators.
Jeremy Scahill: How, though, are you going to navigate the role of Mahmoud Abbas and the Palestinian Authority? He’s 90 years old. The last time he was elected was 2005. The Palestinian Authority was established in 1994 with a five year mandate. The Americans also punished Abbas—they banned him from attending the United Nations general assembly in New York. But also they want to use him for a sort of legitimacy stamp to say, “Ah, see, Palestinians agree with this.” Recently Abbas pushed a decree law about elections—the local elections—that would mean Hamas can’t run in the election. Even Dr. Mustafa Barghouti, a Palestinian political leader and former candidate for president who does not control any armed faction, could not run in the election. But other resistance leaders have told me that working with the PA right now in Gaza is the least bad option because at least it’s Palestinian. But, given the history, this may not really strike a lot of Palestinians as a convincing answer. What is your position on how to navigate the way the Americans want to use the PA and the broader struggle by Hamas and other movements to preserve the Palestinian cause for an independent state?
Khaled Meshaal: First, democracy is a right of the Palestinian people. Elections and building the Palestinian political system on democratic foundations are a right of the Palestinian people, not a favor from anyone in the world—not a gift we wait for from anyone. On the other hand, the slogans raised by the United States and Western capitals about democratizing the region, or their support for a democratic system—they do practice it in their own countries, no doubt about that—they must respect the choice of peoples to exercise this democratic right. The Palestinian people have a culture and a history of political engagement. Just as they excelled in the struggle, they excel in politics. They have formed parties since the days of the British Mandate. They have culture, free press, education, and universities. The Palestinian people are vibrant, educated, and well-versed in civilization. Palestine itself is the land of civilization and of the Prophets—it has a long history. It also has a history of peaceful coexistence among its different components and religious communities. Therefore, the Palestinian people do not need anyone to teach them the culture of democracy. They simply need others not to interfere with or violate this right of democracy.
The democracy desired in Palestine, as is unfortunately practiced in some countries in the region and the world, is that elections should produce predetermined results acceptable to those holding them. If they do not, they are canceled. That is not democracy.
Now, there was the Palestinian Authority, as you mentioned, [established] in 1994. In 2006, elections were held, and Hamas participated for the first time. Hamas won the elections and formed a government in 2006 and extended offers to all Palestinian partners. However, the Authority in Ramallah pressured these factions not to participate. Consequently, Hamas was forced to form the government alone with some independent figures. This was not their choice but imposed on them because Ramallah incited the participating factions. Until clashes occurred and some members of the Palestinian security apparatus at that time attempted a coup against the legitimate government led by Mr. Ismail Haniyeh—Brother Abu Al-Ubid was the Prime Minister at the time, who later became a martyr, as you know, more than a year ago. Then the Mecca Agreement of February 2007 was reached, leading to a national unity government in which Fatah and all the factions participated.
By June 2007, as a result of an attempt by remnants of the security apparatus to overthrow this government, clashes occurred, and stability was imposed in Gaza under the leadership of Hamas. Some claimed that Hamas had ousted the others, which is not true. I visited an Arab leader at the time, and he asked me, “Brother Abu al-Waleed, how is it that you fought Fatah and the others in 2007?” I replied, “We did not fight anyone. We were not opposing or fighting the authority—we were the authority. When someone rebels against the law and the authority, what should we do? Suppose, Mr. President, someone from a party in your own country came and fought you—what would you do? Retaliate? Stop them? Or just watch and smile?” The president smiled. So, Hamas did not stage a coup against anyone because it was the authority. Ismail Haniyeh [of Hamas] was the Prime Minister of the national unity government, and [Fatah politician] Azzam al-Ahmad was his deputy.
So, Hamas is committed to democracy, committed to the law, and committed to making the democratic experiment succeed. Since that time, the situation has changed. What is the main reason for this? Many Western powers—and unfortunately, some regional powers in the area—were not satisfied with the results of the 2006 elections and did not give Hamas and the Palestinian society the opportunity to make this experiment succeed. As a result, a coup was attempted against it through security and military conspiracies. Vanity Fair at the time published a detailed report about this—it is a Western magazine, as you know. Gaza was also subjected to an economic blockade. The democratic experiment was therefore fought against economically and targeted security-wise through attempts to overthrow it. The security coup did not succeed, but there is no doubt that the blockade harmed the experiment and made life in Gaza abnormal. So, this democratic experiment was perhaps targeted for failure from the very beginning, but the will of our people enabled Hamas to continue.
After that, we were called to hold elections several times, but what made this fail was President Mahmoud Abbas. We agreed several times—for example, in 2011, we agreed to rebuild the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) on new democratic foundations. That is, there are elections for the Palestinian Authority—which, as you know, operates in Gaza and the West Bank. The PLO is the political national reference for the Palestinian people, inside and outside [the country]. We agreed to rebuild the organization and took a transitional step by forming a temporary leadership framework, which met for only two sessions in Cairo that I attended, and then they did nothing. President Mahmoud Abbas, on his own initiative, called for municipal elections several times and then canceled them. We agreed in, I think, 2020 or 2021, on elections—they were canceled again. I asked one of the leaders in Ramallah, “Why were the elections canceled?” Of course, this was unofficial, and he said, “In short, because we are not confident in the results.”
Therefore, the democracy desired in Palestine, as is unfortunately practiced in some countries in the region and the world, is that elections should produce predetermined results acceptable to those holding them. If they do not, they are canceled. That is not democracy. If you respect the will of the people, allow them to express it freely at the ballot box. Today, everyone knows—even after the destruction in Gaza following two long years of the crime of genocide committed by Israel—that the Palestinian conscience, awareness, and, I believe, the Palestinian voter, if given the opportunity, would vote for the resistance They know that the resistance reflects their conscience and is a natural response to the occupation, and that the real problem lies with the Israeli occupation. Therefore, the Palestinian Authority has become weak because, on one hand, it no longer renews its legitimacy before its people. Secondly, it has been reduced to weak roles, especially security coordination with Israel. It has essentially become just a stamp or signature required to approve steps taken by the Israelis or the Americans. And you know—you, being part of American and Western society—that the West does not respect the weak, even if they are its followers. The world respects the strong. Hamas is strong, credible, and open to dealing with the entire world.
So today, notice in the Trump plan and the Security Council resolution—they, of course, want to end Hamas while at the same time rejecting any role for the Palestinian Authority (PA). Europeans advocate for a role for the PA, but the U.S. administration does not accept it, and Israel does not accept it. That is why we have called for Palestinian national unity, so that we are strong together and can impose our will on everyone. Hamas believes in organizing the Palestinian system around two principles: elections and a return to the ballot box, and second, partnership, meaning we do not exclude anyone. I have said this: in normal circumstances, as in the West, the party that wins the majority governs, and the rest are in the opposition or form a shadow government. But in our country, we need the energy of everyone. We hold elections, and after the elections we form a formula of national partnership across all institutions of the Palestinian political system to benefit from everyone’s efforts.
This is what Hamas proposes: it does not assert itself solely based on its popularity or majority, nor because it is the primary force on the ground. It seeks to include everyone. Hamas wants democracy because Hamas is also part of Palestinian society. It has political experience and a practical, civil presence within its community in all its aspects.
Khaled Meshaal, right, with Ismail Haniyeh at a rally to mark the 25th anniversary of the founding of Hamas in Gaza on December 8, 2012. Photo: MAHMUD HAMS/AFP via Getty Images.
Jeremy Scahill: In the most recent polls I’ve read, Hamas is the number one most popular political party in Palestine. You are the most popular candidate for president with the exception of imprisoned leader Marwan Barghouti. But in terms of men who are not in prison right now, you’re the leading candidate. It seems like Europe and America do not want Hamas to be able to participate in elections. Given the popularity of Hamas and your popularity as a political leader according to some Palestinian polls, would you consider running for either president or to be head of the government as prime minister? And how would you do that if they make a law saying you can’t?
Khaled Meshaal: First of all, our dear brother Marwan Barghouti—who is in prison, and whom we hope will be released—we have fought for his release, as well as for [the release of] Brother Ahmad Saadat, the Secretary General of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. However, it is Israel that remains intransigent. And I am not revealing a secret when I say that some Palestinian parties were not enthusiastic about Marwan Barghouti’s release from prison—his wife knows this. Hamas, for its part, was keen, but due to Israeli intransigence and the lack of sufficient American pressure on Israel during the